Choosing between options (1st seat)

[ToreadorElder]

When you have a hand that can say more than one thing, how do you decide which to say first? We'll start by considering the problem in 1st seat, which means we don't have to worry about prior actions.

You have 4 bids: pass, 50 to ask for meld, 51 to show aces, and 52+ to show meld. (Even 59 for double aces, is still essentially a meld bid.) We can start by defining what you need for each bid:

51: aces around
52+: the requisite meld (via adjusted meld)

Note that there are no requirements to have a marriage, or to have X aces to give 20+ meld.

50: At least a 7 card trump suit, at least a 6 trick hand, and a hand that, between meld and tricks, is worth 35 points

If you don't meet any of the 3 criteria, you pass. If you meet only one, you make the bid that fits your hand. If you make 2 or more...that's when things get more complex. Also, there's a major proviso here: while a marriage is not a requirement to give aces or meld, IMO it *is* a requirement to make 2 bids. In fact, IMO you need more than a save suit. I'll save on TTKQJJ; that's not a good suit, but it'll be OK if partner has 4-5 trump. In order to take 2 bids, I think you need ATTKQQ or AAKQJJ...and these are minimum holdings. I'd really prefer a 7th trump.

Aces and meld
The aces bid is uniquely informative, and this will be the ONLY time you can show them to partner. But what if you've got more meld to go with it? Question 1: do you meet the additional requirement to make 2 bids? If not, then you have to decide *which* bid to make...the aces bid, or the meld bid...and live with it.

An aces bid usually has additional meld, so I assume my partner, giving me aces, has about 15 meld total. With 4 aces at least, with 16 counted meld, you'd have 20 adjusted meld. That's overlapping...but the aces bid gives more useful information, so any time you have 18 counted meld, or less, give the *aces*, not the 20.

Also: do NOT count the first 4 aces when considering adjusted meld, IF you start with an aces bid, AND IF you're considering giving 20. Remember: the average aces bid has 15 meld, so a hand with 14 meld and 6 aces has been well-described.

So:
12-16 meld: give aces, then pass

18-20 meld: give aces, then pass with 4-6 aces. With 7+ aces, give 20 meld on the second bid if your hand qualifies, OR if partner has made a positive bid. With the big end of the range here (18 with 7-8 aces)...both 51 and 52 grossly understate the hand, but 51 emphasizes *playing strength* which partner may desperately need.

Note: partner's bid is positive when it isn't a save...that is, an auction like this:
You: 51
LHO: 52
Partner: 53

and RHO leaves you enough room to give 20. Partner's 53 IS NOT!!! a save bid; it's to play. His hand largely meets the requirements to open. If you give him 20 meld, he *can't* pass...or if he does, find another partner. In this sequence:
You: 51
LHO: pass
Pard: 52, 53-58
RHO: pass

52 is just a save; 53-58 are meld bids. (59's double aces, so you can't pass with any marriage...and 60+ is a shutout bid.) Give partner



He gives 54. If you bid 56...he's got to be able to pass. He has no trump suit. You can't bid again, without a playable trump suit.

With 22-24 counted meld, that *doesn't* reach 30 adjusted meld, treat this as the 18-20 meld with extras.

These hands are the Aces+20 group...not enough adjusted meld to hit 30. It matters, because a big risk in making the aces bid first is, it's easy for the auction to reach a state where you can't show 20 meld any more. With 30, that's hard; with 40, it'll be rare...as long as your partner thinks.

When you're only going to bid once, give meld with 30+. You have a couple extra tricks...great! But FAR more meld than normal. With 14-18 meld, the aces bid shows the hand. It's those 20-24 meld, but not enough to adjust to 30...those are pretty much tossups. Bid what you want to emphasize more. 4 aces and 24 meld? Give the meld. 6 aces and 20 meld? Give the aces when they're fairly reliable (not in too short or too long of a suit) to emphasize trick support; probably give the meld with something like



Bleah...with a red trump suit, who knows how many aces you'll actually win?

Meld-ask vs. meld-give (aces OR meld)

The side message of opening with 51 or 52+ is, you don't have a particularly offensive hand, and you're happy if partner plays it. So for this purpose, they're the same thing...giving meld. The decision is when to ask for meld, or give it?

The 2 major factors:
1. What's your trump suit look like?
2. What is your offensive trick count relative to your support trick count?


The 2 issues cover different points. If you give meld initially, your trump suit is mostly limited to a weak 7 card run or an 8 card non-run. The auction

You: 52
Pard: 53
You: 54

probably just shows almost any 7 card suit. So with ATTxxxx or better, or any 8 card run, it's probably better to start with 50. You can often give meld later to describe your hand; you'll have a MUCH harder time showing your trump suit.

The offense/support consideration covers hands such as


The trump suit is below average for a meld-ask, but this hand is all offense. Figure to lose 1 non-spade ace on average...dropped or ruffed. Diamonds can be used to attack opponents' trumps, if you play it in spades. And tempo is key with this hand...,,,, is how this hand *screams* to be played. SO much so...that I would ignore my partner's ace on ace signal in clubs or hearts. The 3rd round of diamonds ASAP, is much more important.

(If anyone wants to discuss this point...pls, don't do it here. Copy/paste and we can do this in the Play forum.)

[mickmackusa]

Wow, what a mouthful, ToreadorElder!
That aside, this is a beautiful, clear, and simple post that will undoubtedly defog a confused beginner and fortify a refined player.
Loved this post. Definitely worth the time.
Rep up.

[ToreadorElder]

Here's a somewhat fringe case in the ask/give meld decision process.

*Generally* when you ask for meld, you have a 7+ card run. What about a big offensive hand, without a run? Say:



Bid 50, or give meld? This hand is almost identical to the last one earlier; it'll largely play the same (,,,,). The difference is in the meld; the run earlier, means 11 more meld. The hand's not that close to pulling 31; it has 8-9 tricks. (The diamond suit adds to the potential.) Pulling 31 is worth more than the 10 meld, but this isn't quite close enough.

So the issue is, can our side win the bid in a contested auction, if I bid 50 first? Obviously, it depends on the auction:

50-52-53-65-?
50-53-55-75-?

If I have only 20 meld, I'm largely stuck in both these auctions. My hand's worth 45-50; I'll have to get extra help from partner to make. Give partner the run and a decent hand...and he's probably going to make had I given 20.

So, your meld plays a big role: you need enough to out-compete the opponents in these reasonably common situations. Generally, this means about 30+.

[TigreLXIX]

I like the insight, but I prefer a more simplistic approach.

The bottom line is, I'm trying to give my partner as much information to bid his hand as possible.  I don't know what his hand is and don't want to assume that just because he bids meld he doesn't have a strong hand as well.  In return, I expect him to give me as much information as he can about his hand and not make the meld-bid assumption of me.

This being said, if I have aces around I always open with 51 (see note below), and if I have meld I always bid it first, even if I want to take the bid.  If I have aces around and meld, I bid both.  (Generally, if I have less than 24 meld including the aces I won't give the second meld bid since it is assumed that I probably have something in addition to aces around, so my partner is probably counting on me for somewhere between 12 and 18 in meld anyway, and a few extra meld points never hurt anyone.  If I have 20-22 and 6+ aces with enough "cover" to have a realistic chance of taking those tricks, I will give the second meld bid indicating 20 meld.)

To explain the reasoning for doing this a little further - to me, bidding is first and foremost an exchange of information between the partners.  If I have meld and power, I still want my partner to know about the meld.  He may have a stronger suit but not enough meld to go out on his own, so I tell him I have meld.  Then he has the ability to outbid me if he believes he has a stronger hand.  If he also has meld and power, then there's virtually no limit to how high we can bid and there is no fear of competing with him.  If I have aces around and a strong suit, he may have a suit like
                 
which would (1) give us absolute control of trump, and (2) give him a sure-fire way of getting into my hand, which would increase the chances of taking tricks with my aces.  If he competes with me for a while but defers (lacking the jack for a run), I'd probably be able to figure out that was his suit based on his meld and my hand - or he could play an ace on my ace, which would leave no doubt - and I'd get into his hand after making my aces count.

One exception to the above scenario is if I have a really strong hand and enough meld to not have to worry about my partner's meld.  Usually this entails at least a 8-9-card suit with 3 aces, a suit I am short in (less than 4) and in which I have one or more ace(s) I want to make good, at least 40 meld if I were to call trump, and the ability to make 25+ points playing, based only on my hand.  In this case, I would go straight to 60 or 65.

Thoughts?

[ToreadorElder]

Bidding is an exchange...but you're telling only half the story, and leaving the other half totally ambiguous.  That's the great flaw of meld first always, AKA MFA.  In MFA, if you give 20 meld to start with, you may still have a suit like 



How are you going to show a suit of this quality?  This is a very good trump suit;  partner will not often have one as good.  Sure, he *might*...but the majority of the time, he won't.  MFA's major flaw is the ambiguity.

Also, I've had these auctions foisted on me far too often:
Pard:  53
RHO:  55
Me:  60 
LHO:  65
Pard:  70

GAH!!!  

Why are you bothering to give me meld when you're going to do this?  And what are you showing, as a general hand type...what kind of trump suit, what kind of hand?  How can I bid intelligently?  

Now, you're saying that you'll suppress the meld when you have exceptional offense.  I call that MFM...meld first mostly.  And that's a definite improvement;  the issue becomes "what's good enough to justify concealing the meld?"  IMO your requirements are far too restrictive;  they do show a thought process that works, but triple ace 8 card run, and a losable ace doesn't get dealt enough.  In my experience, you just don't see notably better than a 7 card run that often.  So, when I have notably better, I'm better off ASKING for meld, because most of the time, it's my trump suit that will be the best choice.  Your minimum requirements are, by my lights, about *2* steps beyond, which leaves too much of a gap.

And take this competitive auction, where N-S are both MFM types, but using your suit-quality requirements:

North:  52
East:  54
South:  56
West:  65

What must North have to bid 70?  If North bids 70, East should pass...but what does South need to bid 75?  The MFA/largely-MFM types may go set less often...but they are also in the wrong trump suit, NOT pulling 31, more often.  

See, to me, it's not about giving information to partner, just for the purpose of giving him information.  It's about finding the right level *and side* to play the hand, as often as possible.  The nuance is, when do you transition from a 'show' hand (give meld) to an 'ask' hand (bid 50 or similar).

[TigreLXIX]

(10-08-2014, 11:47 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  In MFA, if you give 20 meld to start with, you may still have a suit like 



How are you going to show a suit of this quality?  This is a very good trump suit;  partner will not often have one as good.

I show strength in a suit by how aggressive I am in bidding.  With a suit of this strength, I would most likely bid 2-3 times depending on what my other suits look like, and then defer to my partner.  I think in the games I've played, most people are WAY too eager to jump to 60+ or outbid their comfort zone.  However, if people bid sensibly and allow the bid to play out more naturally, I think it would allow for BOTH an informative exchange of meld, and letting the strongest hand take the bid.

(10-08-2014, 11:47 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  Also, I've had these auctions foisted on me far too often:
Pard:  53
RHO:  55
Me:  60 
LHO:  65
Pard:  70

GAH!!!  

Why are you bothering to give me meld when you're going to do this?  And what are you showing, as a general hand type...what kind of trump suit, what kind of hand?  How can I bid intelligently?  

It seems to me like part of your logic is to deal with incompetence or lack of understanding of your partners.  I guess what I'm saying is that in a perfect world, there would be room for bidding your meld and letting the better hand take control.

(10-08-2014, 11:47 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  IMO your requirements are far too restrictive;  they do show a thought process that works, but triple ace 8 card run, and a losable ace doesn't get dealt enough.  In my experience, you just don't see notably better than a 7 card run that often.  So, when I have notably better, I'm better off ASKING for meld, because most of the time, it's my trump suit that will be the best choice.  Your minimum requirements are, by my lights, about *2* steps beyond, which leaves too much of a gap.

Agreed.  I was just using an example, not stating my minimum requirements.

(10-08-2014, 11:47 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  The MFA/largely-MFM types may go set less often...but they are also in the wrong trump suit, NOT pulling 31, more often.  

This may be the case sometimes, but it's also possible for the partnership to make 31 no matter which partner takes the bid.

(10-08-2014, 11:47 AM)ToreadorElder Wrote:  See, to me, it's not about giving information to partner, just for the purpose of giving him information.  It's about finding the right level *and side* to play the hand, as often as possible.  The nuance is, when do you transition from a 'show' hand (give meld) to an 'ask' hand (bid 50 or similar).

And to me, it's not about getting to the highest bid the quickest, just for the sake of getting there.  To me, there is a natural progression to getting to the bid.  My rule of thumb is to bid until I'm comfortable, no matter if I'm bidding against my partner or an opponent.  If I give my partner meld, and he feels he has a stronger hand, I don't mind if he overbids me.

[ToreadorElder]

Quote:I show strength in a suit by how aggressive I am in bidding.  With a suit of this strength, I would most likely bid 2-3 times depending on what my other suits look like, and then defer to my partner.  I think in the games I've played, most people are WAY too eager to jump to 60+ or outbid their comfort zone.  However, if people bid sensibly and allow the bid to play out more naturally, I think it would allow for BOTH an informative exchange of meld, and letting the strongest hand take the bid.

If you have the time to make that many.  If your bidding system requires each side to make 2-3 bids, then it's not sensible bidding, but GOOD bidding, to NOT give you that time when there's no informational disadvantage to doing so. 

Quote:It seems to me like part of your logic is to deal with incompetence or lack of understanding of your partners.  I guess what I'm saying is that in a perfect world, there would be room for bidding your meld and letting the better hand take control.

If my partner is bidding MFA and has a pretty good suit, then he's feeling that he's NOT shown his hand with his first bid, and therefore feels compelled to make the 2nd call.  And if you learn in an MFA approach, I think you're trained to...hmmm, how to put this...'distrust' your partner is too strong.  Doubt your partner?  MFA bidders have, AFAIK, little or no guidelines/policies for what their bids mean, after the meld bid.  Ergo, when they think they have something, they bid, but their bids are seriously ambiguous.

Quote:This may be the case sometimes, but it's also possible for the partnership to make 31 no matter which partner takes the bid.

This is only relevant when several factors combine.  Let's make East dealer, so South bids first.
a)  South has both an 8 card double ace run and, say, 22 meld (not counting the run.)   In SF, South bids 50.
b)  West gives meld at his turn...say, 53.
c)  North also has a good hand with 20 meld.  He bids 54.
d)  East has the hand to jump to 70.
e)  E/W can make their bid.

The biggest problem situation in SF bidding is when each partner has a really good suit/hand, along the lines of:

South


opposite

   

Tweak the hands to give each side, say, 20 meld outside the run.  Neither North nor South is going to want to show the meld at their first turn, so if East/West can show meld quickly, there's a good chance they can steal the hand.  (Of course, then they still have to make.)  BUT, this situation is just not common in my experience, and doesn't make up for the greater ambiguities in playing strength that MFA auctions leave.

Quote:And to me, it's not about getting to the highest bid the quickest, just for the sake of getting there.  To me, there is a natural progression to getting to the bid.  My rule of thumb is to bid until I'm comfortable, no matter if I'm bidding against my partner or an opponent.  If I give my partner meld, and he feels he has a stronger hand, I don't mind if he overbids me.

North:  52
East:  53   (either SF or MFA with a good hand but light meld)
South:  65

South does this so West needs at least 30 meld, and preferably somewhat more, to bid...75 would force East to 80.  Or West has to have a VERY good hand to bid 70 with no indication of meld from his partner.  South need have nothing more than, say,



25 meld with the run, and about 7 tricks (2 club aces, about 5 from trumps).  20 meld, and 2 tricks, from partner, and bingo, you've made 65.  AND you denied West a chance to bid, in many cases.  And this is by no means any kind of exceptional hand for South...it's decently common. 

It's not getting there for the sake of getting there, it's bidding to deny the opponents the room to bid, when our side *does not need to exchange more information.*  The major advantage of SF bidding is when the first bid for a partnership is a meld bid.  Starting with a meld bid is telling partner, feel free to shut the opponents out;  I don't have anything particularly special, and I'm quite willing to let you play it.  MFA lacks this completely.

Now, note that I've said MFA...NOT MFM.  MFM and SF can easily be just about the same approach, with subtle differences.  MFM suggests, give meld first unless you've got a pretty good reason.  SF suggests, try to get captaincy established first.  The core issue is, given a hand with both meld and strength, WHEN do you start by showing the meld, and when do you start with a meld-ask bid.  That's the whole point of what the minimum requirements are to make the meld-ask, *when you have meld.*  I target those standards to work MOST of the time...not 90% of the time as would, I think, a double-ace 8 card run with extras...but more often than not. 

[ToreadorElder]

Another point about MFA, or MFM with overly severe requirements (and thus, giving meld bids too much strength range)...

Half the time, your side is bidding first.  When first seat gives meld, AND offers captaincy to third seat, then these auctions exist:

South  52
West  ?
North 65
East  ?

North/South are totally comfortable.  East/West are often in a mess, regardless of their bidding methods.  The BEST case for E/W is if they're using a similar system and *West* gives meld (and captaincy)...at that point, each side is on an equal footing.  If West is using SF/MFM and bids 53, East won't be able to give meld.  If West is MFA and gives meld (especially 20), then East is still boxed.  What would East's 70 show?  Kinda HAS to be to play, but with what?  And think about what East needs to bid 75 as a meld bid.  West *may not even have a marriage* much less a playable trump suit.  Or West could have an 8 card run.  Who knows?  Note that if E/W are using SF and West DOES bid 53, then East is free to give meld when he has enough to do so because West *has* shown a clear desire to play the hand.

The same problem arises in this auction:

South  pass
West 50
North 60
East ?

When you start playing against better players, this is a COMMON auction.  I've posted before:  if North is gonna bid here, his MINIMUM bid is 59.  60 is simpler.  I've seen 58 and 59 here;  58 just does not cut it, as it gives East too many bids (59 to play, 60 to show 20 meld, 65 to show 30 meld) at reasonable levels.  59 is OK if you prefer 60 but are willing to play 65.  60 completely removes 20 meld bids, and even the bottom end of a 30 meld bid is risky...because West's hand is SO ambiguous. 

In a save auction as this second example, the ambiguity is often unavoidable.  But MFA still has the ambiguity in the first example.

[TigreLXIX]

Thanks Toreador (also to Mick and Rak in this thread). I am starting to see the shortcomings of MFA/MFM and the benefits of other bidding systems.  I'd be curious to see Mick's new bidding scheme when he unveils it, and will continue to review the other threads to learn more advanced bidding strategies.