Bidding System for Newbies (Discussion)

[mary]

(12-21-2012, 09:30 AM)rakbeater Wrote:  Comment, make adjustments, explain your reasoning. Remember, this will be for a completely new player. Consider these basic guidelines for a new player to learn, to build upon as they become more familiar with the game. This is for a player that hasn't learned how to count tricks yet.

Opening Bids: (These are the basic bidding rules if no one has made a bid yet.)

50 - Want the bid; or if the first player to bid passes, you are "saving" your partner with a minimum strength hand or better. (need to teach newbie how to count tricks and define a biddable hand and minimum strength required to make a "save" bid)

(Bids of 51 to 59 are called Meld Bids - because they are showing meld and do not mean the player wants the bid)

51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces

60 - Want the bid (like 50) but have 30 or more meld in your hand (counting a run) so you are jumping to 60 to keep your opponents from sharing information through bidding. (As a beginner, if you want to play it safe, only jump to 60 with 35 or more meld. At least until you learn how to count tricks which indicates the strength of a hand.)


Response bids: (These are the basic bidding rules after the bidding has started)

+1 - Same as an opening bid of 50, either you want the bid, or you are "saving" your partner. (A save bid is needed when your partner makes a Meld Bid and the opponent after your partner passes.)

(+2 to +9, if the bid is under 60 is a Meld Bid)

+2 - same meaning as 52
+3 - same meaning as 53
+4 - same meaning as 54
Etc.

Final note:
If the bidding gets to you and the minimum bid you can make is 65 or greater (bidding over 60 goes by fives), a +5 bid means the same as a +1 bid and a +10 bid is a Meld Bid indicating 30+ meld.

question
can you show a biddable hand and minimum strength required to make a "save" bid
Is there a way to combine what you are saying here
51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces
and what they are saying at the senior center
1st bidder 50 just wanted to open or 1st person pass you bid you are saving
51 = A around
52 = 20 meld - bid just 2 = same meld now includes A's
53 = 30 meld - same just say 3
54 = 40 meld 38 close enough – same just say 4
55 = 50 meld same meaning just say 5

---

(12-21-2012, 09:30 AM)rakbeater Wrote:  Comment, make adjustments, explain your reasoning. Remember, this will be for a completely new player. Consider these basic guidelines for a new player to learn, to build upon as they become more familiar with the game. This is for a player that hasn't learned how to count tricks yet.

Opening Bids: (These are the basic bidding rules if no one has made a bid yet.)

50 - Want the bid; or if the first player to bid passes, you are "saving" your partner with a minimum strength hand or better. (need to teach newbie how to count tricks and define a biddable hand and minimum strength required to make a "save" bid)

(Bids of 51 to 59 are called Meld Bids - because they are showing meld and do not mean the player wants the bid)

51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces

60 - Want the bid (like 50) but have 30 or more meld in your hand (counting a run) so you are jumping to 60 to keep your opponents from sharing information through bidding. (As a beginner, if you want to play it safe, only jump to 60 with 35 or more meld. At least until you learn how to count tricks which indicates the strength of a hand.)


Response bids: (These are the basic bidding rules after the bidding has started)

+1 - Same as an opening bid of 50, either you want the bid, or you are "saving" your partner. (A save bid is needed when your partner makes a Meld Bid and the opponent after your partner passes.)

(+2 to +9, if the bid is under 60 is a Meld Bid)

+2 - same meaning as 52
+3 - same meaning as 53
+4 - same meaning as 54
Etc.

Final note:
If the bidding gets to you and the minimum bid you can make is 65 or greater (bidding over 60 goes by fives), a +5 bid means the same as a +1 bid and a +10 bid is a Meld Bid indicating 30+ meld.

51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces

here is this meld held all in your own hand
what about assume partner has 10

[rakbeater]

(08-17-2014, 07:05 PM)mary Wrote:  question
can you show a biddable hand and minimum strength required to make a "save" bid
Is there a way to combine what you are saying here
51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces
and what they are saying at the senior center
1st bidder 50 just wanted to open or 1st person pass you bid you are saving
51 = A around
52 = 20 meld - bid just 2 = same meld now includes A's
53 = 30 meld - same just say 3
54 = 40 meld 38 close enough – same just say 4
55 = 50 meld same meaning just say 5

---

51 - Aces Around
52 - 16 to 24 meld
53 - 26 to 34 meld
54 - 36 to 44 meld
55 - 46 to 54 meld
56 - 56 to 64 meld
57 - 66 to 76 meld
58 - 76 + meld (unlimited meld)
59 - Double Aces

here is this meld held all in your own hand
what about assume partner has 10

For your first question, yes they basically the same thing, except a 52 bid doesn't mean you have aces, it just means you have 20 meld (or more accurately 16-24 meld)

For you second question, Yes a meld bid is telling your partner only what you have in your hand so your partner can correctly calculate how much meld the two of you have so your partner can bid. If you are the one who wants to take the bid, then you can assume your partner has 10 meld (if that is the number you like to assume, I usually go with 7) and add that to your meld to see how high you can bid.

[ToreadorElder]

Giving meld at your first turn also usually says that you don't have a good trump suit, altho there are exceptions like



Diamonds is certainly a quality trump suit, but you don't have the run, and you don't have enough meld on your own to compete...so you pretty much have to start with giving 20.

[mickmackusa]

So what is the simplest way to teach a player (who is holding a 20-card hand for the first time) how to read the hand?!?

New players don't want to hear about fringe cases.
They don't want to read a bunch of situational analysis for 45 minutes just to play their first hand.

Give them a simple, memorable checklist of what to count.

Basic Hand Reading (succeeds Basic Meld Calculating, and precedes Basic Bidding)

-----------------------------------------
Control-Type Hand:
    Do you have any marriages?
       Of these qualifying suits...
           Which suit is the longest?
           Which suit has the most Aces in it?
           Which suit offers the highest meld?

Support-Type Hands: 
    Aces Support:
        Do you have Single Aces Around?
        Do you have Double Aces Around?

    Meld Support:
        Do you have 18 or more meld?

-----------------------------------------

Super simple, right?

I don't want to argue about exceptions and special circumstances.
They have no place in the Basics realm.
Let's create a basic, safe framework first.
An understanding of what can justifiably be done.
If a beginner makes a non-optimal play during the first game, I want the partner to understanding and forgive the lack of experience.
I want the partner, at the very worst, to shrug their shoulders and say, "Oh, well, you played that correctly for a beginner." ... "That was a special case... [followed by discussion of a more advanced concept.]"

Baby steps.

..................................................

example1: Single Aces Around, Double Pinochle, and a 8-card run, .
example2: a bare Run, and a Roundhouse.
example3: a 6-card run, and an 8-card suit

Lastly, Basic Bidding
Now comes the time when a player must consider what has happened so far in the auction, as well as their own table position.
It is situational, but still needs to be beginner-friendly.
Some Bid Types may or may not be removed, but they will certainly need to be prioritized.
Bid Types are refined into their most appropriate forms, so a new player needs to understand the Basic Bidding Menu (I've whipped up a grid that should cover the basics in CABS -- see attachment).  I won't list them all in this thread, but I would reserve multi-step bids over 60 for Advanced discussion.
A player must confidently be able to arrive at a singular best action.

example1 in seat1, might elect to call a Control-Type Bid, specifically a "Shutout Bid" (60).
example2 in seat3, might opt to "Pass" to stick the Dealer with 50.
example3 in seat4, might "Save" and declare the longer suit after partner gave a hefty meld bid.

   

..................................................


Bring on the Amen's and Hell No's!!!!!

[TigreLXIX]

Mick, I think this is a pretty simple framework for beginners to grasp. However, as I said on a different thread, I'm a proponent of bidding meld first, even if I think I want to control the hand. If I have meld and power, my partner may have more power but no meld...so if I don't let him know I have meld, I may be preventing us from making more points, and perhaps giving our opponents a chance to save their meld if I don't have a 31+ hand.

The other thing this doesn't cover is save bids. I think that is an important part of bidding strategy that beginners should understand.

[mickmackusa]

@ Tigre, it is okay for you to subscribe to Meld First Always.  I do not.  It is perfectly acceptable in this forum for our members to disagree.  In actuality it may be easier/more suitable to teach MFA to a new player.  It removes a component of complexity.  I'll have to think about that for a little.

I have a couple more things to add, after posting yesterday.

First, regarding an Advanced Rule breaking a Basic Rule.
This is going to be unavoidable in some cases, but this is okay.

This is a real-life example that makes sense...
I thought about a simple mantra that I am trying to brainwash my 5 year old daughter with.
"[insert surname here]'s don't quit!"
I want to teach my child resilience, because nearly 100% of the time it will benefit her in whatever she is doing.
The fringe cases where ceaseless resilience has a negative impact would include such nasties as: Alcoholism, Anorexia, Drug Addiction and more.
This building block that I am parenting with is analogous to the Basic Bidding System because there will indubitably be situations where this core principle is undone/complexified.  The correct time to explain "when to quit" is not when my daughter is five, but rather after she has learned resilience AND when she is capable of fathoming what I am talking about.  The right time to teach Advanced Rules is after all of the Basic Rules have been driven home.

Second, I failed to mention the very necessary formula for Bid Limit when using Control-Type Bids.  A player, of course, needs to know when to hit the brakes.

I don't need to be the owner of the solutions we need.
I just need a simple resolution, because I want to build the next set of tools/games in the Basics Menu.
It is long overdue.
I don't want our visitors to think that the only thing that they need to learn is how to count meld; that's just ridiculous!

Please assist me in developing these new tools.

[TigreLXIX]

(10-11-2014, 12:19 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  Tigre, it is okay for you to subscribe to Meld First Always.  I do not.

Just curious - anyone have any probabilistic / statistical proof that MFA is detrimental to overall scoring?  I'm not opposed to learning and trying different approaches - after all that's why I joined this forum - but I'm just struggling to see the benefit of other bidding systems.  Thanks.

[mickmackusa]

(10-11-2014, 12:19 AM)mickmackusa Wrote:  Tigre, it is okay for you to subscribe to Meld First Always.  I do not.

(10-11-2014, 12:43 AM)TigreLXIX Wrote:  Just curious - anyone have any probabilistic / statistical proof that MFA is detrimental to overall scoring?  I'm not opposed to learning and trying different approaches - after all that's why I joined this forum - but I'm just struggling to see the benefit of other bidding systems.  Thanks.

While I admire your quest to find scientific/mathematical reasoning for why, I will admit I don't hold that answer.

For me, I am convinced that the justification for not using MFA is that it is tardy in conveying strength/preference for a hand that can also offer a Control Bid.  This, too often, will find a partnership wasting auction points while simply feeling out which partner should become Declarer.  What makes matters worse is when one of the opposition is still in the auction and they are bidding only to be a thorn, while your partnership is jostling for Declarership  -- in this case, the final bid is often much higher than needed.

Ideally, my goal is to resolve captaincy and calculate the partnership's point winning capability in the fewest/lowest unambiguous bids.

A partner that prioritizes his hand as a Control Bidding hand (which is also a Meld Bidding hand) avoids the need to offer meld bid, if his partner offers a Meld Bid or Passes.  In this case, Captaincy is resolved and the Captain has enough information to calculate the team's winning capability IN JUST TWO BIDS!  This is great for at least two reasons that I can think of.  First, the team's contract is kept to a minimum -- improving the likelihood of making the bid.  Second, the Captain can now go on the offensive by making a Lockout Control Bid to interrupt the opposition's communication.

Also observe that, in reference to auction points,  a minimum Control Bid will always be cheaper than the smallest Meld Bid. 

Here is a more specific case.  Let's say you are first to act and have an 8-card run and 20 meld outside of trump.
Auction goes: 50, 52, PASS, 53

• You have all the information you need to calculate your Bid Limit.
  
• The bonus is, the opposition doesn't know how much meld You have, so they can't accurately deduce what your Bid Limit is.
  

But if the auction goes: 52, 54, 55, 56...

• Then you don't know if your partner has a weak 6-card trump suit or a 9-card run.
  
• The auction is likely to reach and/or break 60.  (compared to the previous auction, this can be referred to as Auction Inflation)
  
• The opposition knows all information that your team knows.
  
• If You end up with Captaincy, you've wasted 2 auction points communicating meld to someone who will end up not using the information.
  

I am devising a new Bidding System (which is not fully baked yet) to which my strategic principles are put first.  When I manage to convert the remaining ambiguous bids to unambiguous, it will be complete.  I'll be honest, it's a rather draconian assault on CABS, but if I can find a few people to put it into practice, then I hope to be able to prove its competency as a system.

[ToreadorElder]

One other point about efficaciousness...does anyone really USE MFA, or do they use MFM?  Or MFA, with shutout bids (opening 60+)?

And the level of the opposition matters.  If you're playing against very bad, thoughtless bidders that will LET you bid, then MFA bidders are likely to have the time to bid out.

Finally, MFA only applies to the first round of bidding.  I have never seen anyone discuss the meanings of 2nd and subsequent bids in various auctions, which is why it so strongly feels like blind guessing, not a rational exchange of information.

[rakbeater]

Good points by TE.

I learned early on when I started playing online (years ago), that my beginner MFA bidding works fine when everyone who wants the bid just bids +1. (I can give meld with a strong, offensive hand, and then my opponent passes and my partner bids +1, and then I have to bid +1 to tell my partner that I have a strong hand just incase he is saving me....) But once my rating was higher and I started playing with good players, there was rarely time for that, because good opponents aren't going to let you play these little +1 bidding games with your partner. That was when I had to become a MFM bidder out of necessity. That was also back before I was counting tricks and evaluating my hand by trick count.

Here is a point that I think needs to be brought to any MFA bidders; It isn't statistical proof, but is a common situation that shows why MFA is weak and detrimental to overall scoring...if you have a strong hand and a meld hand then you have roughly 20 meld (minimum) and a run for a total of 35 meld. That should be an automatic bid to 60+. (the why can be broken down if someone needs to know) By giving a meld bid instead of jumping to 60+, YOU are allowing your opponents the opportunity to communicate through bidding, which can cost you the bid and the hand. Enough hands like that will cost you the game, and many times a game is decided by only one hand.