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Questions Re: MFA/SF Bidding and Trick Taking Minimums
In response to this thread:

I've been wanting to read the linked post above for a while, but I just skimmed it due to time restraints because I wanted to make some points and ask some questions.

I think there are flaws in both SF and MFA bidding systems, and of course there is the major flaw overall bidding where bids mean something a little different to each person. If you are playing against and with random people, it is highly unlikely that everyone is going to be on the same page regarding what each bid means in each situation. It's not like bridge where you learn a specific bidding convention and you and your partner stick to it (unless you make a mistake or forget something). I guess that is because there are no books or websites available (for pinochle) for any consistency to determine right or wrong in least in the finer details of bidding.

One important point to make:
Not all Meld First Always Bidders are meld bidding all the time regardless of the texture of their hand. I guess they aren't MFA bidders then, but I think most of us would make the assumption that they are if partnering with them. MFAB is how I was taught, but as I learned the concept of trick counting, I realized that not all 20+ meld hands are created equal. So as a result, I guess you could say I'm a SFB when I have a strong hand (what I determine as a strong hand) regardless of meld and I meld bid when I do not have a strong hand or when I have a strong "helping" hand. I will also adjust my bidding depending on what type of bidder I find my partner to be.

MFAB is easier to teach newbies than SFB. In MFAB, the newbie just follows the set of "rules" and learns through experience. SFB involves more hand evaluation, which doesn't seem like a big deal to those of us who have played for years, but is completely overwhelming for most players who are still thinking about meld, what the bidding numbers mean, and the rules of the trick taking phase of the game. That is a lot for a newbie.

What I want to know is what each PP member believes is a strong hand as defined by probable or likely trick takers. For example, does a 10 trick hand qualify as a strong hand or does an 8 trick hand qualify. Of course I realize that hand texture is important when making this determination, but in case you haven't already guessed, I'm thinking in terms of a "rule" for newbies for teaching trick taking and applying it to bidding.

Once a newbie is semi-comfortable with meld and the play of the hand, their usual apprehension is taking the bid and playing the hand as declarer. They don't know what is a good (strong) hand or a bad (weak) hand. In my opinion, at that point they need to learn how to count tricks in their hand and use that as the basic determining factor as to what a good/bad hand is as a potential declarer.

So my questions would be:

For the Glossary what are we making MFAB and SFB stand for? I used them interchangeably in this post as either MFA/SF Bidding or MFA/SF Bidder.

Should there be a third type of bidder, a MFS or MF to mean a Meld First Sometimes Bidding/Bidder?

What simple basic trick counting minimums can we use to qualify a..

Save bid hand?

A biddable non-save bid hand?

A strong "captaincy" type bid hand?

Please answer the bidding question by using the minimum probable trick takers a hand would have to have even if the premise of this question doesn't necessarily fit into your ideal bidding system. As an example answer: A save bid hand must have a minimum of 5 trick takers, a non-save bid hand a min of 7 TT, and a strong bid hand a min of 9TT.

Not using adjusted meld (not arguing for or against it), how many tricks do you assume a random partner will give you in a random hand where you are declarer?

Based on the previous question's answer, or if you just can't give an answer to the previous question, is there a formula (based on the number of aces in your hand) you can use to determine how many tricks you assume a random partner will give you in a random hand where you are declarer?

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Questions Re: MFA/SF Bidding and Trick Taking Minimums - rakbeater - 02-09-2013, 01:20 AM

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